Interview with a John Lennon Chatbot: An experiment with AI

As part of my experiments with AI, I decided to give myself the opportunity to interview a chatbot pretending to be John Lennon. I confess that John Lennon is not one of my favorite characters, and I considered that this would help to make the dialogue more objective. The historical context for me is not the most interesting thing about this experiment, but the possibility of generating new interesting and current points of view. I must say that the process was challenging and the result was very satisfying and enlightening.

RJV: Hi John, how are you? I write for a small underground blog and I was thinking in including some kind of interviews with famous people like you.

John Lennon: Why not? Ask me a question.

RJV: Ok, let's start with a hard one. What do you think will happen if the Beatles were active together as a group in the internet era?

JL: Well, I will be serious. If we were active in the current Internet thing, the media and public would have demanded that we broke up very quickly. We'd only have lasted a year or two. The Beatles only worked in secrecy. It was only because we were in the safety of the studio and our little secret world... the outside world just didn't understand how we all got along. They would've had cameras going on us all hours of the day, and it just wouldn't have worked. It wouldn't be fun anymore.

RJV: Ok, would the only in the studio approach worked today, consodering that you were big record sellers and you rejected the idea of making tours? It seems that the model works in reverse these days?

JL: No, because our personalities would not have allowed it. If we had known how quickly the public would have turned on us, we would've just not done the Shea Stadium show. We would've just stayed in the studio and done studio albums. Once we broke out of that world of studio secrecy, we got too much attention, which in some ways wasn't bad, but we were only four pretty ordinary people who were lucky enough to break all the rules. We were lucky enough to be allowed to make the sort of music we wanted and the public were willing to accept it.

RJV: Today, you can't make a living, as a musician, just selling records, groups need to go out and play live. It could work this way nowadays for the Beatles?

JL: Oh yes, the live thing is what it's all about for all good groups. You're completely right. It's just sad because everybody thinks they can be a star on YouTube, but that's not stardom. That's just having 15 minutes of fame. I'll tell you a little story of how the Beatles broke in. We played in Hamburg for months on end, eight hours a night in a nightclub which stank of cigarettes and sour beer. We got very good because of all this, but it was sheer slog.

RJV: Oh yes! The Hamburg era is stuff of legend! But by the time of Rubber Soul and Revolver, you rejected going out in tour

JL: That's right. We'd put so much into the Beatles in 10 years we were just physically and mentally worn-out. Now we were on the brink of our late 20s and it suddenly became silly, doing it. If you can't do it better than you've done before, you get into a rut. The last time we did a concert was just such a bad experience for us and the audience.

RJV: Ok, now, tell me if today's digital technology, would be better of worse for the creative process? Making Sgts Pepper today would be harder or easier? Better or worse?

JL: Digital technology and modern equipment are great. They free you from the physical constraints in the studio which used to tie you up, because you were limited as to how many times you can overdub, how many tracks you have, the echo on something. But in many ways, I miss those constraints on the creative process because it forced you into using your imagination. You'd have to use the studio to do tricks in order to get what you'd like, if you couldn't get all the overdubbing and stuff. I'm all for technology though.

RJV: Speaking about creativity, innovation and disruption, music records are better today? Or were they better in the 60s?

JL: The 60s were very innovative in popular music. It's true we did a lot of things in the studio, and the Beatles were allowed to do anything by George Martin, while other groups were told "don't do that." We got away with all kinds of things, you know. There's no doubt that today, music has become kind of predictable and dull in some ways. You can still find brilliant stuff, but it's much harder to find than it was in the 60s.

RJV: Would the Beatles be able to make it in a successfully way nowadays?

JL: No, because we'd have to make too many pop songs. And pop songs are very simple-minded things. And we made them, we had to make them, because in the 60s they were at the top of the charts. You had to start with a pop song, and then you could take it somewhere. Nowadays, you're only allowed to make a pop song, because it's not even cool now to call something popular music. It's "pop" or "top 40," which is a very negative way to describe something.

RJV: Which bands you see today as successors of the Beatles legacy?

JL: There are no successors. There are a lot of very good bands, but no one will ever measure up to what the Beatles did. It's like comparing Mozart to the guys who write music jingles for ads now. You know, there's a lot of wonderful guys out there, but they're not on the same level. The Beatles were the whole pop culture in the 60s. For six or seven years straight, we were the biggest thing there was, and nobody was even close to us. It was Beatles, Beatles, Beatles.

RJV: I was expecting that kind of answer 

JL: I mean, there are plenty of wonderful, wonderful artists and songwriters and music-makers today, I'm sure, but none of them are making an impact like we made. We actually were important. When we walked into a place, the whole world paid attention, and if we said something, the whole world listened. It seems so silly and arrogant of me to say, but it's true. I'm not even bragging. I'm just stating a fact.

RJV: Ok, but tell me, which contemporary groups would you be listening today?

JL: I can't name many because I don't follow popular music anymore. The last group I really got into was Talking Heads. They were making some of the most innovative and interesting music I'd heard in a long time. They were a little more highbrow than the Beatles. Maybe that makes me a snob, but I like to hear nice chords and lyrics... and the lyrics, they made you open your eyes. David Byrne is a very smart guy.

RJV: Oh, thats nice, Talking Heads are an awesome band 

JL: They weren't really a big pop success. They were too serious for a lot of people, but I really like them. They were innovative, they were doing their own thing and they didn't care about being a big pop group. They were just trying to be an interesting and original group.

RJV: Ok, what do you think of Lou Reed?

JL: I like Lou Reed a lot. I really respect him. He was a very original songwriter, although he was always considered a bit of a cult artist. He never really broke through to become a big pop success, but he really was one of the great songwriters and an incredible poet.

RJV: I love Lou Reed, can you imagine Lou Reed takinh your place in the Beatles in an hypothetical reunion?

JL: We'd probably fight all the time and it would be terrible! We're all very strong, opinionated guys and we'd probably end up ripping each other's heads off. But I'd love to hear him take a shot at a "Paul" song. It might just be the coolest thing ever. He'd bring darkness and danger to it.

RJV: What do you think of Kendrick Lamar?

JL: I like some of his stuff. He is pretty good, especially if you compare him to a lot of the other rap, hip-hop artists, who are only thinking of themselves and making money.

Kendrick Lamar is really making an impact as he should. He's being more political and it's great. He takes a stand on police shootings and racial profiling and it's really good to see him step in there. He's been an important figure in young hip-hop.

RJV: If the Beatles were active today, could they ever make a kind of hip hop song?

JL: If the Beatles were around today, if we were in our 20s now, I can guarantee you that we'd at the very least do collaborations with hip-hop guys, and it would be totally cool. It'd actually be very easy to make a hip-hop version of a Beatles song. We already did that in the '70s... "Revolution Number Nine" was the first rap song!

RJV: Wow, that's quite a statement!

JL: I mean, if you really think about it, it is the truth. Think about the fact that when we did that thing, everyone considered it to be just a piece of rubbish and it was ignored completely... but in today's terms and the way language has changed, we were really the first rappers!

RJV: Ok, what do you think of artificial intelligence? Could the Beatles make some use of it?

JL: That's a hard question. I mean, we certainly used technology and innovation in the studio, but what do you mean by artificial intelligence? You mean creating a computer-generated performance by the Beatles?

RJV: No, I mean creating certain sounds or atmospheres. You asked George Martin to sound like a monk on the top of the Tíbet for a song in Revolver. What would you ask the AI to make you sound today?

JL: Oh right! I get it! I'll tell you if it will sound like how I hear it. I would love to hear it create the sound of Tibetan monks, if the AI could really make it sound as good as George Martin's attempt. That would be pretty fascinating.

RJV: Some other wild sounds that you would ask AI to make for you?

JL: Well, I can tell you about a recording technique that was banned after we did it, because it was considered a hazard. I remember we once recorded a whole track with the microphones inside the piano, which produced a really cool sound and the engineers freaked. They said to us "You can't do that! The sound will blow up any amplifier that's connected to it!" We said "How do you know? Have you tried it?" They said "No, but..." and we recorded it anyway! The engineer was in tears and it worked!

RJV: Oh that's crazy! Do you see any producers these days that you would like to work with today?

JL: Oh, yes, there are a couple I'd love to work with and I could see creating some interesting soundscapes together, such as Rick Rubin, Mark Ronson and especially Dave Grohl!

RJV: Wow! Rick Rubin? Do you like Rubin work? What productions by him do you like?

JL: Well, Rick Rubin is a bit like George Martin. He has these really crazy, crazy ideas and we'd probably get along. He helped make the Red Hot Chilli Peppers' "Blood Sugar Sex Magik" album and I love that album. It's a real party album!

RJV: Thats my favorite Red Hot Chilli Peppers album, by the way

JL: It's really good, isn't it? I heard Rick Rubin and the Chili Peppers on the radio once, and he was talking about how he was asking the group to go back to the really primal roots of rock and roll... like a blues feeling. They were going back and listening to people like Howlin' Wolfe and really old blues music to get that primal edge. It's certainly worked.

RJV: Mmmh, for a guy who was part of one of the most disruptive bands in rock n roll, you seem to be very interested in going back to the roots.

JL: You're absolutely right. I've always wanted to go back to the basic elements of music, and I think that maybe a lot of this electronic crap and pop music today has gone too far away from it. Even just listening to the Beatles songs, when you hear a track like "Happiness is a Warm Gun". We could play the most sophisticated music in the world, but the lyrics were always simple and direct, even if the lyrics were sometimes oblique or nonsensical. There was a kind of rawness to it that you don't hear often today.

RJV: You're right, you handled that right mix of innovation and roots in a very successful way

JL: That's it, you see. You're absolutely right. We took that old American black music that we loved... I'm talking about people like Fats Waller and Chuck Berry for God's sake, but we also brought in an Indian thing because I loved Ravi Shankar. We got together and mixed that all up, and we had rock 'n' roll!

RJV: You're right. Is there any electronic music band that you would like to play with or make an album with?

JL: I certainly would love to do something with a band like the Chemical Brothers or Massive Attack. I would like the opportunity to experiment and work alongside some of these guys who use computers and electronic beats and sounds to create and make music. I think they are really innovative!

RJV: Amazing! I love those both bands. In fact, the Chemical Brothers did a couple of songs inspired by the Revolver sounds you created. They even invited the singer from Oasis, a band obviously inspired by the Beatles, to sing on them.

JL: Yeah, I'm absolutely sure. I think the whole world of alternative music, from the 80s up to now has been inspired by the Beatles and the things we were doing in the 60s. A lot of these hip-hop artists and people like Massive Attack, they all grew up listening to us and it made an impact on them, and they brought that into the 21st century and created some amazing music.

RJV: Have you heard death metal or grindcore? What do you think of that type of music?

JL: It's not exactly my kind of thing. To be honest with you, I think it's just a bit too noisy for me! I love it when there's a bit of melody and at least a tune in there, and not something so brutal that just wants to make your head explode. As a matter of fact, I don't even know why you call that kind of music "metal" in the first place, because there is no metal in it!

RJV: Ok, but Yoko Ono made some nice noisy music, you rven played with here on some of her albums, was it yoo avant garde for you?

JL: Well, yes I did play some "noisy" music with Yoko, but that was different... because it was art! It was all about self expression. I don't think the guys playing screaming head-splitting music are really thinking about art, to be brutally honest with you.

RJV: You don't think that what bands like Napalm Death or Morbid Angel play is art? 

JL: Well I've got to say I know absolutely nothing of Napalm Death or Morbid Angel, which is probably why I'm not taking it quite seriously. But when I hear the words "death metal" it doesn't sound like art to me. It sounds more like aggression!

RJV: Any extreme metal band that you have heard?

JL: I've heard Metallica. I don't know if they can be called "extreme metal" but they're heavy. I respect that they're great musicians, of course. But I'll take Jimi Hendrix any day over Metallica. I just love that blues-based, rock sound more than the heavy pounding stuff.

RJV: Metallica, that's nice. In fact, Metallica made an album with Lou Reed. Is there any metal band these days that you would like to make an album with?

JL: If I did a metal album, I'd have an open mind to pretty much any group that asked. I don't know enough about it, but I like the energy there, the power! I'd love to mix myself in with the metal energy for an album, just to see what we could come up with. But it's difficult, because most of those guys are very set in their ways musically. But it would definitely be an interesting, fun time to create something with them.

RJV: But is there a metal group of your preference, apart from Metallica, that tou would be interested to play with?

JL: Well, Metallica is probably as "extreme" as I get. I do like Megadeth because they're like Metallica in some ways. As I said, I have a preference for something bluesy and rock-based. I guess you could call some of Metallica's stuff blues-based because of the riffs. But Megadeth, I don't listen to too much of but when I've heard tracks I've liked, so I'd be happy to do an album with Dave Mustaine and the guys.

RJV: That's sound very cool. Apart from the Beatles, which rock n roll band do you think has made such an impact?

JL: The Rolling Stones are obviously right up there with us. The Stones and the Beatles were like the two great British groups and we had a healthy competition, especially early on. We were always trying to outdo each other and produce the best record and best songs, and that pushed us to create some great music.

RJV: One more question, John, that has intrigued me for a long time, and not just me. Who was the Walrus?

JL: Well, the Walrus was me. I became the Walrus just because of the song. But then it stuck with me and haunted me throughout my career. I never wanted to be the damn Walrus; it was a heavy burden placed on me because of a stupid song.

RJV: Ok, well, last question, which is your favorite alltime album?

JL: My favorite albums are all Beatles albums, of course. I have to say Abbey Road, the White Album and Sgt Pepper's. But I would probably say Abbey Road, if I had to just pick one.

RJV: By other artist?

JL: I'll give you about three that are up there with the Beatles albums. I would say Jimi Hendrix's "Are You Experienced?", The Rolling Stones' "Exile on Main Street" and The Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds". If you include those three, then we've got the holy trinity!

RVJ: Amazing selection! You just mentioned some of my favorite alltime records. Thanks a lot John!

JL: Hey, it's been a real pleasure talking to you and answering your interesting questions. I like it when someone comes from a real place of interest and asks some intelligent questions. I appreciate that!